Dwarkesh, I got to tell you, as an American I find this man utterly repellant. He makes me want to eat a steak with an egg on top while reading Nietzsche. Vegans are annoying, but people who wish to use moral suasion to change people’s moral framework at least respect their fellow citizens as moral agents. This dude just wants to use state power to achieve his moral aims through coercion.
Rather than ad hominem attacks, can you provide reasoning for why animal welfare is not something we should care about? He provided plenty of info about interventions that allow you to continue eating cheap meat, but with much less harm to animals; why should I agree with you that that’s not worth caring about?
In general, I’m human. Bears and tigers don’t care about me. I only care about them on aesthetic grounds. I don’t care if cows, chickens, or pigs suffer. I reject utilitarianism.
By default I am opposed to moral coercion by states, but in some cases it seems to have been justified. I'm glad it was used to end the slave trade, and I don't doubt you would have found abolitionists annoying too.
On the switching from beef to chicken point, Matt Yglesias recently had Michael Grunwald on a chat where the claim is made that it is not just a marginal difference RE sustainability, but actually more like an order of magnitude difference. Bollard clearly understands the cruelty aspects but may be underselling the sustainability challenges.
There needs to be more coordination between people inventing welfare tech and people pushing for welfare-standard laws. Those laws won't get passed if implementation will be too expensive, and it will be so if there isn't good tech. Conversely, good tech won't get invented if there's no demand for it, and there won't be demand if there aren't ambitious welfare laws.
This seems to kinda undersell AI and ignore alignment.
Like they are talking about AGI in a world where it doesn't kill all humans, doesn't mind upload everyone into it's weird utopia. It just does some pretty easy lab meat biotech that humans are already doing.
I have been vegan for years but this was the kick in the ass I needed to finally donate something to animal causes. Thank you for that, and I deeply appreciate the matching donation.
Plant-based meat does not taste as good as real meat. Impossible Burger is impressive, but on other kinds of meat, it's not close from what I've seen. Edit: I guess I haven't tried some of the latest products.
A related essay on the topic of factory farming that really moved me: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-dominion-by-matthew
Dwarkesh, I got to tell you, as an American I find this man utterly repellant. He makes me want to eat a steak with an egg on top while reading Nietzsche. Vegans are annoying, but people who wish to use moral suasion to change people’s moral framework at least respect their fellow citizens as moral agents. This dude just wants to use state power to achieve his moral aims through coercion.
You’re a sick monster, and I hope you lose and that meat is banned. You’re welcome for the moral clarity :)
Rather than ad hominem attacks, can you provide reasoning for why animal welfare is not something we should care about? He provided plenty of info about interventions that allow you to continue eating cheap meat, but with much less harm to animals; why should I agree with you that that’s not worth caring about?
In general, I’m human. Bears and tigers don’t care about me. I only care about them on aesthetic grounds. I don’t care if cows, chickens, or pigs suffer. I reject utilitarianism.
By default I am opposed to moral coercion by states, but in some cases it seems to have been justified. I'm glad it was used to end the slave trade, and I don't doubt you would have found abolitionists annoying too.
On the switching from beef to chicken point, Matt Yglesias recently had Michael Grunwald on a chat where the claim is made that it is not just a marginal difference RE sustainability, but actually more like an order of magnitude difference. Bollard clearly understands the cruelty aspects but may be underselling the sustainability challenges.
https://open.substack.com/pub/matthewyglesias/p/real-talk-about-agriculture-and-climate
There needs to be more coordination between people inventing welfare tech and people pushing for welfare-standard laws. Those laws won't get passed if implementation will be too expensive, and it will be so if there isn't good tech. Conversely, good tech won't get invented if there's no demand for it, and there won't be demand if there aren't ambitious welfare laws.
This seems to kinda undersell AI and ignore alignment.
Like they are talking about AGI in a world where it doesn't kill all humans, doesn't mind upload everyone into it's weird utopia. It just does some pretty easy lab meat biotech that humans are already doing.
I have been vegan for years but this was the kick in the ass I needed to finally donate something to animal causes. Thank you for that, and I deeply appreciate the matching donation.
Plant-based meat does not taste as good as real meat. Impossible Burger is impressive, but on other kinds of meat, it's not close from what I've seen. Edit: I guess I haven't tried some of the latest products.
That said apparently chicken nuggets vs plant based nuggets have gotten there. But maybe that says more about chicken nuggets, than chicken itself 😂
Admittedly, I haven't tried those.
Oh, man. I'm about to head back to work at PETA here.